{ The List } Units

[La Diva]

Originally posted by Tall_Walt
... whether you wanted a tile to be developed as farm or mine (is there another choice??)

Plant Forest
Clear Forest
Clear Jungle

[Max Sinister]

Maybe for modern times: Plant Jungle (of course, Jungle would have to be useful for something... against the greenhouse warming f.e.)

[Harry Tuttle]

2.6 No Cruise Missiles
Cruise missiles should not be a seperate buildable unit. Once researched, the cruise missile ability should simply be available to a selection of units. Possibly you should have to make a doctrinal choice in order to make full use of them.
--Harry Tuttle


Ummm, I didn't say that.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Drachasor

http://www.bangalorenet.com/system1/chungw/spage.html

Surprise, surprise, the Civ version looks similar. This is technically a Stealth Fighter/Bomber, but the "fighter" part there is not insignificant.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/march2003/0303FA22.asp

(gallery of images: http://www.f22-raptor.com/media.html# )

Here's the pure Stealth Fighter currently being developed...there should be a squadron out around 2006 or so. It's been in the works since '86 apparently.

China is supposedly working on its own program as well.

In other news the next generation of tanks will have Stealth Technology. Basically anything that helps you avoid being spotted by your opponent gives you a very nice tactical advantage.

-Drachasor

Actually they are entering service now.

[lajzar]

This is a draft listing of the various flags and attributes a unit should have as part of the unit design interface for modders. Before I bring this into teh main header post, I want comments on it. I am still on holiday - just came back to civilisation (ack, pun) from the Australian desert, and I don't have access to the civ files for reference, so I have probably missed stuff.

• move cost X in terrain Y (this modifies the unit's basic chassis type, use for units with an afinity for a specific terrain)
• marines (see the unit listing for a discussion of what this implies)
• parachute drop, range X (out of city)
• helicopter drop, range X (in and out of city)
• attack multiplier X vs chassis class Y
• defence multiplier X vs chassis class Y
• can/cannot be bribed (one of these should be default unflagged setting)
• does not displays national flag
• invisible until it attacks
• transport X units (for sea transports)
• can unload onto any coastal tile (for sea transports)
• aircraft carrier (can transport only air, not land units)
• can ford rivers with no penalty (this depends on whether rivers are civ3 barriers or civ2 arteries)
• counter-bombard (bombards back as a regular fight if bombarded and within range; applies to almost all sea units a hyper-advanced land units)
• aa gun strength X range Y ('bombards' air units if the mission would take the air unit within range)
• ...
• [various assymetric unit functions]
• police unit - acts as 2 units for policing duties
• scout radius X - can see all units in radius X. default is 1 tile.

Lots of people want land/air transports, for various reason, I dont think these would be a good thing (these are more typically attached to a specific infantry unit as an integrated unit, such as mech inf. and air cavalry; general purpose transports are reflected in the road/rail networks, and airport city improvements).

stealth/submarine
stealth/anti-radar (stealth aircraft)
stealth/hidden (guerillas, special forces, spies)
...Plus the corresponding "can see stealth/X"

Chassis type

• chassis - air (enables missions)
• chassis - float/NOE (nape of the earth flight, ie helicopters, SF hover tanks, can ignore forests/jungle/hill, reduced penalty for mountains)
• chassis - float/air cushion (ignores swamp/desert move cost, can go on coastal water)
• chassis - land/infantry
• chassis - land/cavalry (including horse, camel, elephant)
• chassis - land/wheel
• chassis - land/tracked (reduced penalty on soft ground due to lower ground pressure)
• chassis - land/seige (needs road for most rough ground)
• chassis - water/coastal
• chassis - water/sea
• chassis - water/ocean

Every unit should have exactly one of these chosen. land/seige is civ3's "wheeled" flag renamed, as these unoits don't necessarily move on wheels per se, and not all wheeled units have this penalty. The very earliest (ww1) tanks should have this chassis type.

Land/tracked possibly too much detail - this distinction is as yet not made in any civ game. It might also entail an increased move cost on very uneven ground such as mountains.

Float/air cushion has a normal operating altitude of a metre or three. Float/NOE has a normal operating altitude of anything up to a few hundred metres when performing CAS operations.

air unit missions

• bombard
• scout area
• relocate
• close air support

Figter escorts for bombing missions can be done by making a unit stack before giving a bombard order.

I'm not sure how close air cupport can be implemented, as I think it would require a stack of land units and air units, and land units don't have air missions. Perhaps any land unit with air units sufficiently close to support could have an "attack with CAS" option under a right click menu.

Fire and movement

Every land/sea unit should have exactly one of these flags. The last of these probably won't be needed for any units in the epic game, but will be relevant for moders trying to recreate small scale actions.

• normal - attack ends the turn for that unit. This is the mode for all civ 1 land units.
• hit and run - can move again after attacking, subject to having enough move points left. This is the mode for civ3 knights.
• blitz - can attack multiple times per turn. This is the mode for civ2 fast units and civ3 modern armour.
• fire or move - can move or attack each turn, not both.

Possible unit stats comon to all units are:
attack
defend
Move
bombard (strength X, range Y, can hit [land/sea/both] )

Build Cost
Maintenance Cost
Required tech
Required city improvement
Required terrain (in city radius)
Required special resources

Special resource requirements are probably better implemented as a build cost, and resources provide a stockpileable quantity erach turn.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by La Diva
Unit commands belong in a terrain thread? Well, that's one way of looking at it. What I've read on the terrain-related threads deals more with the kinds of terrains to include, so unless I start my own thread for Orders or Unit Actions, this was the most compatible location for my comments.

I'll post anywhere you want, as long as my ideas are at least considered for inclusion in the report to Firaxis. Not every idea is a gem, but I think some of them have merit and would improve Civ4.

Worker actions are generally considered a different part of the game from military units, and such a thread would probably be "terrain improvement" or something like that.

[Tall_Walt]

Moving workers to the terrain thread: that's probably the thread that's going to express opinions on whether workers should exist at all as the appearance of terrain improvement. If improvements appear as workers, they'll exist and do what the terrain people need.

An exception is sappers and combat engineers which have duties other than terrain improvement.

With regard to the list of capabilities, it may be worth distinguishing between normal military wheels, which can pass plains and (generally) deserts, and low ground pressure (tracks or large number of wheels) vehicles, which can pass jungles and swamps.

Float is a good idea for LAVs and such. You might want to add Ford, that is, the vehicle can ford a river without penalty but not go into a full water square.

I'm probably repeating myself, but I strongly feel Close Air Support (CAS) should be an air mission. These would add A/D to friendly units or subtract A/D from enemy units in a chosen tile.

Air/Land transports exist, such as USMC LCACs (Landing Craft, Air Cushion). Civilian air cushion transports are used in some conditions. A question is whether they go far enough inland to be significant in Civ terms.

[lajzar]

Air/Land transports exist, such as USMC LCACs (Landing Craft, Air Cushion). Civilian air cushion transports are used in some conditions. A question is whether they go far enough inland to be significant in Civ terms.

[other comments integrated]

air cushion vehicles are a prime example of chassis - floater vehicles. Yes, helicopters also fit into this category, it is that broad. the main reason air cushion vehicles dont make it into the list is that afaik the curtain cannot be practically armoured without weighing the vehicle down excessively, making the suspension type useless for combat vehicles, and those transport roles it is used for are already adequately covered by the modern sea transport unit. All existing land uses are in highly specialised terrain afaik.

ETA: the above paragraph is a pile of carp. I've separated out air cushions and NOE vehicles.

Im stuck in Sydney till monday, I have barely enough money for food for the next 2 days, and my hostel has free internet. What else is there for me to do?

[DarkCloud]

I have barely enough money for food for the next 2 days

--
Just wondering, I'm having a little trouble ordering the ideas that you posted... did you skip around a bit- I can't seem to find where the 1.0.0 ideas is posted (or is it self-explanatory)... and was wondering a bit why there are no 3.0 or 4.0 sections (or is that just for placeholding? or do they signify the 'alternative systems for combat post?')

and if you could write a short conclusion, I'd really appreciate it!

ohter than that, it seems good

[Odin]

La Diva is getting creamed by a 16-year old. Thats sad.

[Trifna]

I got this in one of my threads and it was in the wrong place. So here it is:




Units could have two "life bars".
One showing the condition (health/damage) and one showing the units resources (fuel/ammo).

As for the condition bar:
When attacked the units condition/health should suffer.
The condition bar should decrease slowly if the unit is xxxx-tiles from a city/farm/camp etc of your own and increase/stay_in_top when inside.

As for the resource bar:
Each move and each shot (attack) deducts "one point" from the resource-bar. Then you are able to choose to move less and fire some more shot or move fast and then shot less.
When the resource bar hits zero, the unit can't move and the unit should loose one "condition point" every turn until it “dies” or is "visited" by a refueler (special unit). Refuelling should have a price say ??? (that should depend of the type of unit).
TheBirdMan

[Trifna]

Auto-plunder, cities as elsewhere

Plundering/pillaging of cities and "habited areas" should be done automatically by units (or if asked by the player). Wether an army is plundering or not is dependent on this army's needs (modern armies normally don't, paying your armies helps...). Perhaps it could also depend on which territory the armies are (on their own territory, if they are unpaid/hungry).

It is something seen throughout history. And of course it is the troops' supplied while on campaign, AND THEIR RIGHT TO LOOT!!

The French and Romans got problems with their own troops pillaging their own territory. And we should not forget to mention Crusaders in Israel killing within a bloodshed, or the Spaniards pillaging/torturing/killing/raping in Rome (and Vatican) without the leaders' permission: tension was high, and so was the temptation...



PS: I found the Unit thread to be the best one to discuss the subject...